A walk through the talk in the order it was given, paraphrased, with timestamps so each point can be found in the video. The questions listed first are the ones the speaker raises, in his own framing. The talk does not cover the founders' ultimate goal or preferred exit, so nothing on that is included.
Episode
Co-Founder Equity Mistakes to Avoid
Speaker
Michael Seibel, YC
Length
19 min
Standard terms
4 year vest, 1 year cliff
Q
Questions raised in the talk
What will keep my co-founder motivated across all four years, not only convince them to join today?2:41
Will they still feel they have enough equity in year two, three and four, or will they resent a CEO holding four times more while they grind?2:18
What will keep my co-founder motivated in year three, when everything is going badly?10:00
01
Who this is for
0:09 to 0:50
It covers the conversations founders have at the very start, before product-market fit.
Applying it to later-stage companies or non-tech companies would be a misuse of the advice.
02
Core advice
0:50 to 2:00
Be generous with co-founder equity. The aim is to motivate the founding team to work extremely hard through the first couple of years, when it often looks like nothing is working.
The biggest mistake is being stingy with equity in this delicate period, which pushes people out while the company could still become something big.
Both the very experienced founder and the naive founder are generous. The middle group works through skills, contributions, time commitment and network in a complicated calculation. The speaker argues that calculation is not needed.
The talk runs in this order: equity splits, breakups, bad reasons for very unequal splits, bad advice, final thoughts.
03
Co-founder equity
2:01 to 3:11
What was discussed
The common mistake is not thinking about how to motivate co-founders today and tomorrow. Equity is usually earned over four years.
The risk in years two to four is a co-founder who feels they do not have enough equity, or who has been there from the start and sees the CEO holding four times more. That creates resentment.
The CEO's job is to think about what keeps a co-founder motivated for all four years and beyond, not only what convinces them today.
Typical advice: close to equal splits. They need not be exactly equal, but the more generous you are, the more a strong founder stays motivated.
04
Vesting and cliffs
3:11 to 4:42
What was discussed
Vesting means equity is earned over time. If you leave during that time you do not keep all of it.
A cliff means that if you do not make it through year one, you get none of your grant.
Both should apply to all founders.
Founders sometimes ask why bother, since they like each other and nothing will go wrong. The reply: founder equity is not something to innovate on, and best practice is that all of it comes with vesting and a cliff.
Life happens: people leave when they do not want to, family circumstances change, people get sick, people do not perform. Vesting and a cliff let founders be let go, or leave, without destroying the cap table.
The typical set up is four-year vesting with a one-year cliff: no stock until one year of working at the company.
05
Vesting and the cliff, drawn
Before the cliffLeave or be removed in the first year and you are not owed any of the grant. The talk says a token 2% to 5% is typical, by agreement.
At the cliffReach one year and the first quarter of the grant is earned in one step.
After the cliffThe remainder is earned month by month until the full four years. Leave before then and the unvested part stays with the company.
The four years and one year are the talk's typical terms. The 25% at the cliff and the monthly pace after it come from YC's article on splitting equity.
06
Co-founders must be essential
4:42 to 5:37
A founding team is the smallest group that can get an MVP built, put it in customers' hands and start learning.
Generosity with equity also makes it easier to remove people who are not essential or who should be employees, not founders.
The co-founder title should not be handed out freely. A team arriving with five, six or seven co-founders signals that a conversation has not happened. Seven people are not essential to getting a product out.
07
Equity is for work not yet done
5:37 to 5:59
In almost every case, most of the work in the company is not done when equity is handed out.
Equity motivates people for work they have not yet done. It is not a reward for work they have done.
08
The CEO's right to remove a founder
5:59 to 6:43
However the split is set up, the CEO should keep the right to fire founders who are not performing.
There has to be a captain of the ship, someone held accountable, and that person must be able to let people go.
A founder unwilling to join on those terms does not grasp how serious a company is, or should start their own company as CEO.
09
Talking about a breakup in advance
6:36 to 9:28
The conversation
The most responsible step is for co-founders to talk about what will happen if things do not work out. The speaker offers YC's guidelines for pre-product-market-fit breakups as points to discuss together.
YC's guidelines
Leaves or fired before the one-year cliff: typically a token amount of equity, 2% to 5%. There is no evidence yet that the company works and most of the work comes after the cliff.
Before product-market fit, a founder who leaves or is fired should leave with no more than 5%, which often means giving equity back. The remaining team stays motivated and the equity goes to people who can still add value. A departed founder holding a lot of equity reduces the company's chances, and so the value of their own stake.
Leaves or fired after the cliff: should keep no more than 5% of the company.
A fired founder getting a small severance of one to three months is reasonable. For a founder who chooses to leave it is not typical, though it can be done.
Every departing founder, fired or not, should resign from the board, sign a release, and often give proxy voting rights to the remaining founders.
Usually the non-CEO founder leaves or is fired, but sometimes it is the CEO. The new CEO has to arrange the breakup accordingly, and the previous CEO should understand these expectations too.
10
Bad reasons for very unequal splits
9:28 to 14:04
Each reason, and the reply
My co-founder agreed to it.
9:36
I own 90% and my co-founder said yes to 10%.
Optimising for today, not tomorrow. The question is what keeps the co-founder excited in year three when everything is going badly.
As CEO, think about tomorrow even if the co-founder does not, and be more generous to cover the bad times.
I had the idea.
10:24
I came up with the idea and they are just building it.
About 30,000 companies apply to YC every six months and ideas are a dime a dozen. Execution is the game.
The co-founder is essential to execution, and if not, they should not be a co-founder.
I started earlier.
10:57
I started six months before my co-founders.
Ask how much work is left. In a traditional tech software startup, about 99% is left, over a journey that could run 10 to 30 years.
A six-month difference in start date is probably not significant.
My co-founder needs a salary and I do not.
11:21
Salary and equity are different things.
Salary is what someone needs to live and be able to work at the company. Equity motivates them to work extremely hard, often alongside a below-market salary.
Do not cut someone's equity because they need more salary. Give each founder the salary they need to live, which may be zero, then the equity they need to be motivated.
I am older and more experienced.
12:03
Experience can help with fundraising and more.
Making someone a co-founder means they are a key contributor and you could not do it without them.
Be careful how motivated that person will be, and be generous.
I hired my co-founder after raising money.
12:35
Fundraising does not change the odds as much as people think.
Many startups raise money and very few reach a billion dollars in revenue.
Even with $100,000 to $500,000 raised, 99% of the work is still ahead.
I hired my co-founder after launch.
13:06
Launching the MVP is the beginning of the journey.
Summary of the section
All of these are short-term thinking. The best founders think long term, think about their co-founders' needs even when the co-founders do not, and use equity as a tool for maximum motivation of a small number of people, not something to hoard.
11
Bad advice
14:04 to 17:14
Performance-based equity
14:14
Examples: equity set by lines of code written, or by revenue generated in sales.
Goals at the start of a tech startup are unclear and they change. Companies pivot. Believing you can measure so precisely is a fallacy.
Equity distribution has best practices that work, and is not the place to innovate.
Part-time founders
15:04
A part-time founder is not a founder and should not be considered.
The most viable companies do not show many part-time founders. A founder works full time.
Dynamic equity agreements
15:37
Equity that depends on whether the company hits some milestone. Founders are far more motivated when they know what they hold from the start.
These options are too fancy and are often created because people do not understand the value of vesting and a cliff.
What actually protects you
16:17
If the founder relationship is not working, the founder should leave or be fired, and before the cliff. That is the protection, not formulas.
Without the wherewithal to ask a co-founder to leave, or to leave yourself if you are not performing, you should not be doing this.
Vesting and a cliff are the downside protection, and they are what allows generosity with equity.
12
Final thoughts
17:14 to 19:13
Over 10 to 15 years, one founder often stays longer, carries more responsibility and arguably becomes more valuable. Bezos at Amazon and Zuckerberg at Facebook are the examples given.
That does not mean they should hold vastly more equity. The first four to six years create much of the value and are when most companies die.
Even a founder in that position should stay generous. The co-founders supplied the activation energy to get into the game at all.
Co-founder motivation is central to making a successful product. Use co-founder equity to give yourself the best chance of building something people want, after which the rules change.
Source: the full transcript of the YouTube video, which is the same talk as the Apple Podcasts episode. Timestamps are from the video. Wording is paraphrased, so check the video for the exact words. Take legal advice before signing a vesting agreement.